Insider's Guide to Energy EV

17. Second Wind: Pioneering the Afterlife of EV Batteries

• Chris Sass • Season 1 • Episode 17

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In "Second Wind: Pioneering the Afterlife of EV Batteries," a captivating installment of the Insider's Guide to Energy EV Miniseries, hosts Chris Sass and Niall Riddell, along with guest Matthew Lumsden, CEO of Connected Energy, delve into the revolutionary realm of electric vehicle (EV) battery repurposing. This groundbreaking episode offers an in-depth look into the transformative journey of EV batteries as they transition from powering vehicles to their second life in energy storage systems. Lumsden, an expert in the field, articulates the technical adaptability of these batteries, their enduring utility in various applications, and the significant environmental advantages of prolonging their operational life. The discussion provides a comprehensive understanding of how EV batteries, once thought to have limited lifespans, are now spearheading innovation in renewable energy storage, underscoring a pivotal shift towards sustainable technology.

The episode further explores the economic ramifications for EV owners and the broader automotive industry. Lumsden sheds light on the intriguing concept that the residual value of EV batteries could substantially alter vehicle financing models, particularly for commercial fleets. This aspect is especially critical, as it suggests a novel approach to EV economics, potentially reducing the total cost of ownership and enhancing the appeal of electric vehicles. The dialogue delves into the intricate dynamics of the supply chain, emphasizing the necessity of robust partnerships and strategic collaborations for the effective scaling of this innovative model. This segment of the podcast is particularly enlightening, offering a glimpse into the complex logistics and commercial relationships that underpin the emerging market for second-life EV batteries.

Concluding with a future-forward perspective, this insightful episode uncovers the untapped potential of repurposed EV batteries in contributing to energy solutions and their instrumental role in sculpting a more sustainable, economically viable future. The conversation is not just about technological innovation but also about environmental stewardship and economic opportunity. By extending the lifespan of EV batteries, the episode illustrates how we can harness existing resources to create a greener, more efficient world. This installment of the Insider's Guide to Energy EV Miniseries is a must-listen for anyone interested in the evolving landscape of renewable energy, sustainability, and the future of electric mobility.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewlumsden/ 

Transcript 

 

00:00:02 Speaker 1 

Broadcasting from Washington, DC, This is insider's guide to energy. 

00:00:13 Speaker 2 

This episode of Insiders Guide to Energy EV Miniseries is powered by Paua. Paua helps your business transition to electric vehicles by simplifying charging, managing payments, and optimizing your charging data. Welcome to insiders guide to Energy EV series I'm your host Chris Sassin. 

00:00:30 Speaker 2 

With me as Co host Niall Riddell. Niall, how's it going today? 

00:00:33 Speaker 2 

OK. 

00:00:34 Speaker 3 

Hey, Chris, we've got an exciting one today. We're going to be talking about a topic that businesses raise with me all the time. What happens to the battery at the end of an electric vehicles life. 

00:00:47 Speaker 2 

That is an interesting question. I think we've talked about recycling batteries, but is that really the end of the batteries life? Right. So there's a big difference between when the batteries life ends and when the usable life of a battery for an EV ends. And I think that's what we hope to cover today. So I'm going to turn it over you to get us kicked off. 

00:01:03 Speaker 3 

So today we're going to be talking to Matthew Lumsden from connected energy, whose business is focused on exactly what happens when their battery is usable. Life expires inside a vehicle, but then he makes additional use out of that battery. Matthew, why don't you tell us more about your business? 

00:01:21 Speaker 4 

So Matthew Winsome, CEO of connected energy and as you rightly point out, our business is entirely based on reusing electric vehicle batteries, deploying them in stationary energy storage systems. 

00:01:35 Speaker 4 

And doing that when they've come to the end of their useful in an electric vehicle or they started their their second life as I guess we say. 

00:01:45 Speaker 3 

And and how do you determine when it's reached the end of its useful life in an electric vehicle? How do you measure that? 

00:01:51 Speaker 3 

What are you looking for? 

00:01:53 Speaker 4 

OK, so so the determining factor is, can you drive as far as you need to drive in your electric vehicle? 

00:02:01 Speaker 4 

So obviously as you use your vehicle and as you charge your vehicle and as you leave it standing, the battery gradually degrades and there comes a point where it doesn't provide the utility that you you might need of that vehicle. So typically that's perhaps 50. It obviously varies according to the vehicle. 

00:02:21 Speaker 4 

You know, if you if. 

00:02:22 Speaker 4 

You think about a bus or a truck. 

00:02:24 Speaker 4 

Then they have very distinct duty titles, very, very focused on the amount of rain Dr. each day. So if the batteries become degraded, they can't do that. What they want to achieve. So we we typically take about around about 1520% degraded and then we move it into the into one of our systems and that's. 

00:02:44 Speaker 4 

It's all around kilowatt hours, so we lose kilowatt hours, we lose the capacity to store energy and then we move it into second life. 

00:02:53 Speaker 3 

So if we're looking at 100 kWh battery pack in a big vehicle, uh, you're interested in it when it gets maybe to 85 or even 80 kilowatt hours of usable capacity. 

00:03:05 Speaker 3 

What actually happens to that battery? 

00:03:09 Speaker 4 

Well, when we get it. 

00:03:10 Speaker 3 

Well, more more. What? Why does how does it get to 85 kHz? Does it disappear? Is it unusable? Is it just really inefficient? 

00:03:19 Speaker 4 

As the battery is used, the chemistry and the battery gradually changes and it ceases to be able to store charge and discharge as much energy as it is as it was in its first. 

00:03:29 Speaker 4 

Life. But you know it. It still has the ability to store a lot of energy, hence why we then move to second life. What we do is we will take a battery exactly as it was in the vehicle. So we don't change the battery in any in any way at all. We don't take the modules out of the battery. 

00:03:50 Speaker 4 

So we use all of the embedded technology that's been developed by the the the battery or the vehicle OEM. 

00:03:58 Speaker 4 

We use the battery management system. We use the safety systems, we use the cooling systems and then we take that battery pack in its entirety after it's been tested, and then we build that up. We put all of these batteries into one of our systems and then, you know, we we can then create a system that's as large as we require. 

00:04:18 Speaker 4 

Dependent on the number of batteries we put into it. 

00:04:21 Speaker 2 

I I guess what comes to mind to me is, you know, a lot of these batteries seem to be built into the vehicle, Sir. They're they're part of the vehicle. When I, when I get my vehicle so. 

00:04:31 Speaker 2 

How do you get this whole battery system out do for this second use? 

00:04:36 Speaker 4 

So we don't take them out. I mean typically we will we we get our batteries from the OEM. 

00:04:44 Speaker 4 

All the all the battery manufacturer move them, but you know if you think about your EV, the battery is more the the floor pan of the vehicle. So quite often it's it's actually cooled by. In the case of a Nissan Leaf, say it's quite often cooled by the air blowing underneath the battery or it might have a. 

00:05:02 Speaker 4 

System, but effectively you know you need to take it into a service center. They remove a load of bolts for. 

00:05:09 Speaker 4 

Save complication and drop the battery out, but you know, obviously it's a it's a professional program because these are these heavy bits of kits. 

00:05:16 Speaker 4 

But quite often the car batteries are in a form factor that fits. 

00:05:23 Speaker 4 

Within the shape. 

00:05:24 Speaker 4 

Of the the car or the truck or the OR the van. Sorry, but typically if you're looking at a bus and truck battery then they're much more sort of prismatic cuboid shaped, shaped batteries that are easier to stack and build into a bigger system. 

00:05:39 Speaker 3 

And and when it. 

00:05:40 Speaker 3 

Comes out of the the vehicle. The OEM takes out and they deliver it to you. How do you know it's actually suitable or usable for any future use case? 

00:05:50 Speaker 4 

So there's a number of tools, so some of the batteries are tested before we we before we. So we will provide the OEM with a specification of a battery that we're prepared to accept and that you know typically as we mentioned before, involves having a certain amount of kilowatt hours that we can use. 

00:06:10 Speaker 4 

Other batteries you know, particularly in in buses and trucks, you know, come with telematics data. 

00:06:16 Speaker 4 

So, you know, sophisticated telemetrics used in fleets these days provide a lot of data about the health of the battery, how it's been charged and discharged, et cetera. So you know all of these combine to provide us with a a picture of the condition that the battery is in and how long we would expect it to last in. 

00:06:36 Speaker 4 

One of our applications. 

00:06:39 Speaker 2 

Now, if if you've received. 

00:06:40 Speaker 2 

The battery from an OEM, does this alleviate their need for the whole life cycle of the battery? Does it now become your challenge to what to do with the battery when it's no longer usable? Or is the OEM still responsible for it? 

00:06:53 Speaker 4 

Depends on the commercial model, but typically unless we. 

00:06:58 Speaker 4 

As the liability fully contract over to us, it stays with the OEM's, but interestingly enough, you know that the outrage has really changed over the last couple of. 

00:07:10 Speaker 4 

As whereas if we take a step back a couple of years ago, you know we felt that OEMs were actually very keen to pass that liability on to somebody else, whereas what's happened in, in more recent times is that the OEM's. 

00:07:26 Speaker 4 

Are now really. 

00:07:27 Speaker 4 

Keen to maximize the value of the. 

00:07:31 Speaker 4 

Life, life and end of life recycling and also be able to, you know, demonstrate that that recycled material. 

00:07:39 Speaker 4 

Is feeding back. 

00:07:40 Speaker 4 

Into their their new production. So there's a now for the OEMs to. 

00:07:46 Speaker 4 

Keep in touch with that battery throughout its life. 

00:07:51 Speaker 3 

And from a supply chain perspective, you know vehicles are now rolling out to more and more people. So we're seeing new vehicles hit the market, but you must be lagging the market by 8 or 10 years. So are you getting enough supply of batteries, you know who's who's providing them to you? 

00:08:08 Speaker 4 

It's just starting to ramp up. 

00:08:11 Speaker 4 

So you know we significant ramp probably from about 2026 but but we're we're beginning to see that now. So we I I guess we. 

00:08:23 Speaker 4 

We saw this problem coming, so we're able to use a range of different. 

00:08:28 Speaker 4 

Batteries. So you know, we're using two or three different Renault batteries. We're using faulty power batteries. You know, we've integrated Land Rover or investors include Volvo and Caterpillar. So you know we're we're we're we're in the process of working with them to use their batteries as well. So yeah, in the short term and potentially long term as well. 

00:08:48 Speaker 4 

Actually, yeah, we're combining batches so we can move from projects. 

00:08:53 Speaker 4 

That are you. 

00:08:54 Speaker 4 

Know a MW hour through 10s and 10s and hundreds of MW hours. 

00:09:01 Speaker 3 

So the the battery reaches the end of its usable life because the capacity is no longer there. The OEM removes it. You do some testing and then presumably you construct it into some form factor. You know what do you then do with it? How do how do you deploy these second life batteries? What's the use case? 

00:09:19 Speaker 4 

Yeah, so so we. 

00:09:22 Speaker 4 

Are smaller systems are, if you imagine a 20 foot shipping container, so perhaps 30% of that container is. 

00:09:31 Speaker 4 

Patronymics and the other 60% is has racking and cooling system to contain the batteries. So we literally slot the batteries in on the shelves. 

00:09:42 Speaker 4 

Plug them up and then that becomes an integrated energy storage system that can deploy it on a industrial and commercial type site. The next phase of our business is moving up into much sort of larger utility scale systems and then we'll have 40 foot containers that will just be full of batteries and we will just plug those containers. 

00:10:03 Speaker 4 

Into the power electronics separate containers if you like system. 

00:10:09 Speaker 2 

So how ubiquitous or how similar are the batteries? I mean, you've got two OEM's that you mentioned by name that are investors and I assume you work with are, are the batteries pretty standard? So you know if I if I take 5 different brands of EV battery, are they still going to fit the 28 foot container or do I need a different? 

00:10:30 Speaker 2 

Format. They make these things. 

00:10:32 Speaker 4 

No, no. So typically the, I mean the good thing is over a period of life. So if you imagine a Nissan LEAF battery, if you take it right from its whatever it was 24 kilowatt hours, right at the beginning through to its sixty kilowatt hours, the form factor as it evolves has changed very little. So we can interchange different generations of a Nissan LEAF. 

00:10:52 Speaker 4 

Countries say. But when you move between different manufacturers, then you know all manufacturers will have a different can protocol or communications protocol to communicate with the batteries. They'll typically have different cooling systems. The batteries are different shapes and. 

00:11:08 Speaker 4 

Rises, so you know a container load of batteries will last through the last with that battery as it changes and it evolves. But typically we'll have different formats of containers for different types of batteries. 

00:11:24 Speaker 2 

Right. So so the formats say similar you you you've got different for different brands perhaps that this fit in the form factor? 

00:11:32 Speaker 2 

But you know, EV demand on a battery, so the software is optimized for maybe charging overnight or maybe a rapid charge and then you know, kind of the brake trickling in or whatever, but I'd imagine that's a very different kind of a performance than I would have from having, let's say, back at my data center or. 

00:11:51 Speaker 2 

Having some large, you know thing dropped in my backyard to get some backup. 

00:11:55 Speaker 2 

So how does that? 

00:11:59 Speaker 4 

It's it's, it's. 

00:12:01 Speaker 4 

Different, but there are a lot of similarities there, so you know it. It obviously depends how the energy storage systems being used. 

00:12:10 Speaker 4 

So sometimes these systems. 

00:12:12 Speaker 4 

Plugged into the grid and they they literally just charge and discharge to help maintain the frequency of the grid. And you know if you imagine. 

00:12:20 Speaker 4 

Yourself driving your electric car, right? The accelerating. So you're getting, you know, you're charging and you're discharging with the regen, etcetera. So there's a lot of a lot of similarities there and then, you know, if you imagine charging your your current year but then also driving down the motorway, you've got a long period of charging long period of discharging. 

00:12:42 Speaker 4 

So you can actually put together the the components of an EV duty cycle, and there are a lot of similarities between that and the stationary energy storage duty cycle. What we've actually done is is, you know, we've taken degradation data. 

00:13:00 Speaker 4 

From the OEMs and we've used that to predict how the batches would be in our systems. And actually we've, you know they're pretty. 

00:13:09 Speaker 4 

Much bang on. 

00:13:11 Speaker 4 

Degrading exactly as we as we forecast. So there's there clearly is a lot of similarity there. 

00:13:17 Speaker 3 

So you've assembled these assets, you put them on to sites. Do you guys then operate and maintain the assets that you know you're doing both the business models of creating the asset, the physical infrastructure and then operating it? Or do you pass on the the asset as a battery to someone else to operate? 

00:13:35 Speaker 4 

To a certain extent. So, so we must systems in in real time. So if you imagine your normal EV battery and the safety systems on that, we had a have another safety system on top of that that we monitor the batteries in real time. And also if you imagine you've got a system with 100 batteries, all of which are slightly different. 

00:13:56 Speaker 4 

We also gradually adapt the algorithms to make sure we're getting best value out of those batteries. So we do that. We also provide service and maintenance support to these systems. 

00:14:08 Speaker 4 

And also we have our micro grid control software which allows you to integrate the energy storage system with your site. So if you've got EV charges or you've got PV, you might have a CHP plant on your site. We can control the, but other people you know like to trade. 

00:14:28 Speaker 4 

You know, either trade assets or alternatively provide flexibility to the grid. So typically we're being a third party who's a specialist in that kind of monetizing and playing with the system. 

00:14:42 Speaker 3 

And can you give us an example of where you've done this, where if you rolled out this system and you know what are the, what are the examples of the value being created from that system today? 

00:14:52 Speaker 4 

Yeah. So there's there's a nice project we've actually got at Cranfield University, where they have Cranfield have a big test site around an old airport. They use it for large scale testing and gradually building up that facility. So they have. 

00:15:14 Speaker 4 

But also they have an export construct in the generation, but if they can't use all of that PVL, they've got a problem. So we've got three systems on that site, the PV, so that if the overall site load isn't high enough, we can take that PV generation into our storage system. 

00:15:36 Speaker 4 

And then we've got a couple of others that, one of which provides resilience. So if the grid goes down, it may make sure that the the the water water treatment works is still open. 

00:15:46 Speaker 4 

And then we've got another one that can manage. 

00:15:49 Speaker 4 

So we can our system. 

00:15:51 Speaker 4 

Individually to solve individual problems or we can control them all as one system and very shortly they're going to be linking into an aggregator so that those three systems can also be used to provide flexibility to the grid or to trade energy. 

00:16:08 Speaker 3 

So this then means that you're getting that second life out of the battery, and you may maybe get your 8 to 10 years in the car. How long can you expect that grid microgrid or even grid services battery to provide services for? Is it significantly less or do you get a? 

00:16:24 

No, no, we. 

00:16:24 Speaker 3 

Decent life error. 

00:16:25 Speaker 4 

We we anticipate you, you'll get, you know probably the same kind of time. 

00:16:31 Speaker 4 

In stations as well. 

00:16:33 Speaker 4 

I mean, one of the things that we. 

00:16:36 Speaker 4 

Do that is slightly different is that we we don't tend to use the batteries as at such a high power as you. If you really put your foot foot down on the accelerated vehicle, you're pulling a lot of power for the batteries as we tend to use them. 

00:16:50 Speaker 4 

At a slightly. 

00:16:51 Speaker 4 

Lower power, which means that you know that should add to the longevity of the batteries as well. 

00:16:58 Speaker 4 

You know, effectively we're we're doubling the life, the usable work, the working lifespan of the battery and in so do if you compare one of our systems with a new lithium ion system, then we've also got a carbon impact benefit of about 450 tons. 

00:17:19 Speaker 4 

Per MW hour installed relative to installing a new lithium ion system. 

00:17:26 Speaker 2 

What kind of scale are you at right now? Is this just in the UK or are you doing this larger market? 

00:17:33 Speaker 4 

OK, so we've got we've got, we've got about 30 systems either installed or being installed at the moment, UK, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands and Sweden. 

00:17:43 Speaker 4 

At the moment, most of those systems are up to about 1.2 megawatts, but next year we start sort of deploying systems in multi megawatts with a view to gradually moving up into utility scale. So next year we'll probably install a couple of systems that will be between 2:00 and 5:00 megawatts. 

00:18:03 Speaker 4 

See, they're starting to move into systems which have hundreds of batteries rather than 10s of batteries in them. 

00:18:10 Speaker 2 

And then it sounded like you just use shipping containers just like there were blockchain people and cryptocurrency guys. I knew that use block shipping containers. 

00:18:20 Speaker 2 

So you know in the supply chain, is there an endless supply of shipping containers because there's a number of businesses using shipping containers. So are we going to be making steel structures just for batteries at a certain point? 

00:18:34 

Excuse me. 

00:18:37 Speaker 4 

So I think that there there's a, there's a big supply space of shipping containers. I don't think we should worry about that too much as we move into much larger scale systems, we may may well look at a different type of container for them. And you know part of this you know the the challenge in our. 

00:18:57 Speaker 4 

Just to make it work, you've got the whole value chain work, so you've got to work from battery suppliers to EVV OEMs to people who are financing fleets through to us as an integrator through to people who want to buy or monetize energy storage system. 

00:19:14 Speaker 4 

And you know, part of what we're looking at at the moment is when this really moves into volume, will the battery suppliers just. 

00:19:22 Speaker 4 

The container load of batteries to our specification and then we just plug it into our control systems and power systems on site. So there's a lot of work to try. 

00:19:33 Speaker 4 

Put the let next layer. 

00:19:35 Speaker 4 

Beginning on to what this industry look like in 10 years time and have we get it all working for real scale up? 

00:19:44 Speaker 3 

So so this is a question which I love because you you're, you know, you know, you raise a decent amount of money, but you're still an SME playing with some really big corporate players, utilities, automotive providers. You're sat in the middle. Yeah. What's that like? 

00:20:01 Speaker 4 

You know it's it's it's just moved from frustrating to fantastic. 

00:20:06 Speaker 4 

Because you know it's it's, it's. 

00:20:10 Speaker 4 

You when you go out and raise finance and you get yourself a load of strategic investors, you have all sorts of great ideas. 

00:20:19 Speaker 4 

On how you. 

00:20:20 Speaker 4 

Leverage these parts and how they're going to help you build the business. 

00:20:23 Speaker 4 

But quite typically you know you. 

00:20:27 Speaker 4 

A huge corporate has it. It might have a ventures division, which is about. 

00:20:30 Speaker 4 

Investing we've got. 

00:20:33 Speaker 4 

Unit in their group, which is specifically designed to help the companies that they've just invested in. So it's it's very challenging to actually get that support out of the businesses, but. 

00:20:44 Speaker 4 

Just, I mean really I guess because of the fruitfulness that etcetera is starting to demonstrate that we've really just engaged very well with our investors and now it's it's, you know, we're starting to feel the value of those partners and starting to feel. 

00:21:04 Speaker 4 

I guess with somebody holding our hand, you know which, which makes life a lot less risky because it's it's taken a lot, it's taken a lot of time to get the planets to align and it's. 

00:21:13 Speaker 4 

Good that they are and that's good. 

00:21:17 Speaker 3 

So I can see that things are going well now, but you know, how did this journey begin? Because your background means that you've got had to bring a lot of ideas and concepts together. You know, what is your back story to how this business started? 

00:21:32 Speaker 4 

So so so. 

00:21:33 Speaker 4 

My background prior to setting up. 

00:21:34 Speaker 4 

Energy was sort of in in renewable energy consulting, so, but a lot of work on consenting farms and PV. But also we had a power systems group so very. 

00:21:47 Speaker 4 

Cognizant of some of the challenges associated with plugging things into the grid and also you know the challenges faced by the grid when you inject generation variable generation to that as well. So you know. So I guess 10-15 years ago we were talking about smart grids and storage then but. 

00:22:07 Speaker 4 

It it just hadn't really happened. I kind of got involved with some strategic work with the regional development in an agency in the North East. 

00:22:18 Speaker 4 

And the arrival of Nissan with their battery plant and their leaf plant and trying to create some trials in the region to get infrastructure going, demonstrate the vehicles et cetera. So move into electric vehicles and. 

00:22:34 Speaker 4 

That history of understanding the complexity of plugging things into the grid, understanding the role of storage and sort of starting to put EV charging infrastructure in together sort of led to putting two and two together and thinking well, there's a problem here. 

00:22:49 Speaker 4 

And then my technical director at the time came from the world of automotive and he'd kind of spotted the election piece, so he kind. 

00:22:57 Speaker 4 

Of put all. 

00:22:57 Speaker 4 

That together and thought. Well, maybe there's an opportunity here. And then we were fantastically lucky. We won a three and a half million pound proof of concept grant from. 

00:23:08 Speaker 4 

What was department? 

00:23:11 Speaker 4 

Energy and climate change at the time, which enabled us to pull together a a big proof of concept system. So, you know, we did that. And then from there we just gradually I guess matured and industrialize the technology to get to the point where we're deploying them commercially and managing to track some commercial investors. 

00:23:31 Speaker 2 

Now, how do you compete with other grid scale storage that may not be using 80% battery capacity? So if if I got my great new start up tomorrow and I I decide I'm gonna do some grid. 

00:23:43 Speaker 2 

Storage and maybe I'm using battery technology to do. 

00:23:46 Speaker 2 

It you know. 

00:23:48 Speaker 4 

OK, so that's the $1,000,000 question, isn't it? So you know you always have a second life battery you. 

00:23:48 Speaker 2 

How is that? 

00:23:56 Speaker 4 

Some disadvantages so because. 

00:23:59 Speaker 4 

Are degraded. They are less energy dense, which means the systems are. 

00:24:05 Speaker 4 

Which means that. 

00:24:06 Speaker 4 

The costs are higher. They're also communication systems in there that are legacy of the of the vehicles. So you have to put in additional communication systems in there as well. So there so are are additionality, it's not a slam dunk. These things are dirt cheap, kind of a situation. 

00:24:24 Speaker 4 

But by the same token, we've said that actually functionally we can provide exactly the same kind of functionality as we can with the new system. So to make second life successful, you have two key components. One is can you create the enabling technology that gives you the functionality. 

00:24:43 Speaker 4 

That is equivalent to a new system, and the 2nd is. Can you create a business model that provides? 

00:24:49 Speaker 4 

You with the. 

00:24:50 Speaker 4 

Equivalent of the warranties and the performance guarantees that you would expect from a new system so. 

00:24:57 Speaker 4 

You know, I think. 

00:24:59 Speaker 4 

One of the benefits we have experienced from our set of investors is that the right from the battery, through project finance through to utilities through recycling enablers who enables us to create a business model which can be attractive to all those parties and therefore. 

00:25:20 Speaker 4 

Enable the industry to scale up so you know the the the big challenge is the warranties, so you have to look at different model to provide a project investor with the same kind of comfort as they would get from a warranty from our system. 

00:25:36 Speaker 3 

So I can see a world under which automotive company is going to be looking towards a business like yours to go. I found a way to manage legacy batteries as they come. 

00:25:47 Speaker 3 

Out of vehicles. 

00:25:49 Speaker 3 

And to some extent that enables them to get around some of the European directives around their how they handle waste. And we've talked a little bit about the fact that. 

00:25:58 Speaker 3 

Most of the time, the liability remains with the automotive company. So you've got an 8 to 10 year life inside the the car, an 8 to 10 year life outside. In this new era. 

00:26:08 Speaker 3 

Moment. You know, we're talking 20 years, but when do you start to see systems coming offline and what do you do next? Do you pass it back to the automotive guys or is? 

00:26:19 Speaker 3 

There another plan. 

00:26:24 Speaker 4 

The battery through that next phase, which you know typically if you yeah if a battery came out of a crashed vehicle now. 

00:26:36 Speaker 4 

The battery would be disassembled. You know parts would be taken out of that battery, potentially going into the service supply chain and different components within that battery would be receiving recycled in a different way. You know whether when the batteries been in life for 20 years, there are parts there that could still go into the service. 

00:26:57 Speaker 4 

Right. And I'm not sure, but ultimately you know we will, we will manage those boundaries through to a recycler and then you know they will end their life I guess. 

00:27:09 Speaker 2 

So I I guess one thing that I'm thinking about as we're having this conversation, if if I take an old internal combustion engine car, drive it for 10 years, you know, put 200,000 miles on the thing. 

00:27:19 Speaker 2 

And it's dead. 

00:27:21 Speaker 2 

The value of for for scrap you know, maybe I pay someone to take it away. Maybe I get paid a little bit of money for for them to come take it away for parts. 

00:27:30 Speaker 2 

If you're telling me there's a residual life in the battery, how does the EV owner? Are they gonna participate in this at all? Because, you know, I bought a more expensive vehicle, potentially. I've I've used its expected life up, but now you're telling me that it's not really used up, that it's actually a fundamental for something else. So is there a value that's going to trickle back? 

00:27:50 Speaker 2 

To the owners in the residual cause I I don't think used car market is showing that today. 

00:27:56 Speaker 4 

Yeah, that's a really good. So you know, we're now having so. So you're exactly right. So obviously what we can do is we can add a residual value to that battery, which can then be fed back into the the business model that was used to finance the vehicles. So potentially you know that that should. 

00:28:16 Speaker 4 

Produce a lower cost. 

00:28:21 Speaker 4 

Financing model for whoever buys the vehicle in the first. 

00:28:24 Speaker 4 

This is becoming part of, you know, certainly bus fleets. You know typically the battery will have an 8 year warranty. If we can provide A at least an indicative of value of that battery when it's subsequently replaced and that feeds into that whole fleet finance model. So I think we're just getting to the point now. 

00:28:46 Speaker 4 

Where we can provide. 

00:28:52 Speaker 4 

As to what the batteries are worth and then that should be then fed back into, you know, future fleets and the way they're finance and that that, that residual value should ultimately benefit either the company that's buying the fleet or the OR the individual that's buying the vehicle, I guess. 

00:29:13 Speaker 3 

So there's a lot going on in your ecosystem, but one of the things that I was curious to understand, you know, cause you're looking into the future, what excites you most about what's coming next for connected energy? How do you see the future laying out? 

00:29:30 Speaker 4 

I mean, I think exciting. It's pretty, pretty much. 

00:29:34 Speaker 4 

The problem is the hockey stick, you know, so you know there, there is a very clear hockey stick and you know that's going to happen sometime between 20 and 2030 I guess. 

00:29:47 Speaker 4 

And you know our our challenge for the next few years. 

00:29:51 Speaker 4 

You know. 

00:29:53 Speaker 4 

Technology that we've got, system works, we know it's scalable, but then the next piece is all about the supply chain and it's all about de risking all the supply chain. So that you can get an assembler to build all of these. 

00:30:11 Speaker 4 

Container loads of batteries. You've got to workout how those batteries feed from the. 

00:30:17 Speaker 4 

Contain that into the projects. We've got to make sure that all that's financeable and all of these batteries are coming in from different parts of the world. You know, at the moment we're just focusing in Europe, but Even so, they're distributed around Europe. So. So it's it's a, it's a total sort of value chain model where you have to work with the battery suppliers. 

00:30:36 Speaker 4 

To understand what their model is, linked that into our model, linked that into person. It's it's just a complex mesh. 

00:30:47 Speaker 4 

Of partnerships that you've got to develop and our approach to all of this is you, you have just got open. It's not good work, but I'm just trying to be because it's gotta work for everybody. So it's about forging really good party tips and. 

00:31:04 Speaker 4 

Getting to work. So I think we're going through or heading for. 

00:31:11 Speaker 4 

Two or three years of pretty. 

00:31:13 Speaker 4 

Growth, I think. 

00:31:15 Speaker 3 

Yeah, it's quite an exciting time. We've talked a bit about how the business comes together and what about you personally? Are you driving an electric car today? What is it and how did you find the world of electric vehicles? 

00:31:26 Speaker 4 

So you point in my life and I've actually so, so I've I've been right driving a patrol car for years. My wife. 

00:31:35 Speaker 4 

And we've just put my request and electrical salary into the company and and to be honest, I am actually just thinking well, do I need a car? 

00:31:49 Speaker 4 

So at the moment I have an I have a petrol car but in all probability I'm just not going to have a car at all and my wife and I will use a car and I'll use public transport more and. 

00:31:59 Speaker 4 

Uh, yeah, which? 

00:32:00 Speaker 4 

Is a bit of a disappointment because I was looking to. I was looking forward to spinning around in a Polestar or something, but I'm I'm planning to go the next step. 

00:32:10 Speaker 3 

Very cool. That's quite a personal commitment to make. To abandon the car altogether. You've taken us on a bit of a journey, Matthew from you know when? When you received the battery after sort of eight or ten years coming out of the vehicle, how you then manage that battery into a new application and the journey that we go on as you convert that battery into something. 

00:32:31 Speaker 3 

Useful before ultimately it reaches the true end of life, having had its second life, this has been really great and I'm sure a lot of people are gonna be very excited to hear about how we handle batteries at the end of life. So thank you very much for being on the show today. 

00:32:45 Speaker 4 

Thank you. It's great to meet you. An interesting discussion. Thank you. 

00:32:51 Speaker 2 

For our audience, we hope you've enjoyed this episode. Finding out the next life of your battery from your EV, what's going to happen to it, or what could happen to it. If you enjoyed this content, please don't forget to subscribe. Follow us on the YouTube channel, follow us on our LinkedIn group and we will see you again next time. Remember, this series is coming out every other week on the insiders guide to energy. 

00:33:11 Speaker 2 

TV series bye bye.