Insider's Guide to Energy EV

21. Unveiling the Future of Electric Mobility: Insights into Sustainable Transportation

• Chris Sass • Season 1 • Episode 21

Share episode

The latest episode of "Insider's Guide to Energy" podcast offers an in-depth exploration of the rapidly evolving electric vehicle (EV) market. Hosted by energy experts Chris Sass and Niall Riddell, this episode features a compelling conversation with Gill Nowell, a prominent figure in the EV industry. As part of their EV Miniseries, this episode delves into the reasons behind the global shift towards electric vehicles, emphasizing the critical need for clean air and the alarming health impacts of air pollution caused by fossil fuels. The episode sheds light on the UK government's efforts to decarbonize transportation and the role of electric cars in achieving climate change goals and net-zero emissions.

This insightful discussion further addresses the economic aspects of owning an EV, debunking common misconceptions about their cost. Nowell provides a comprehensive analysis of the total cost of ownership for electric vehicles, comparing them with their petrol and diesel counterparts. The conversation highlights the long-term financial benefits of EVs, especially when factoring in charging costs, maintenance, and insurance. The episode also touches on the burgeoning second-hand EV market, indicating a shift towards more affordable electric vehicle options. Nowell's expertise brings clarity to the financial incentives and sustainability benefits that EVs offer, both to individual consumers and businesses.

The podcast also dives into the infrastructure and technological advancements supporting the EV transition. Nowell discusses the challenges and developments in EV charging infrastructure, including the increase in public charging stations and the investment in charging technology. The episode addresses common fears and uncertainties surrounding electric vehicles, such as range anxiety and battery longevity, offering factual counterpoints to these concerns. With a blend of technical knowledge and real-world examples, this episode of "Insider's Guide to Energy" serves as a comprehensive guide for anyone interested in the future of transportation and the pivotal role of electric vehicles in shaping a sustainable, clean energy future.

Transcript 

 

00:00:02 Speaker 1 

Broadcasting from Washington, DC, This is insider's guide to energy. 

00:00:07 Speaker 2 

This episode of Insiders Guide to Energy EV Miniseries is powered by Paua. Paua helps your business transition to electric vehicles by simplifying charging, managing payments, and optimizing your charging data. 

00:00:20 Speaker 2 

Welcome to insiders guide to Energy EV series. I'm your host Chris Sass, and with me is my co-host Niall Riddell. Neil, what are we talking about this week? 

00:00:28 Speaker 4 

So we're going to do a classic electric cars episode with someone who knows this topic incredibly well, so I'm delighted that we've got Gill Noel with us now. Gill's moved into a new role recently with a free and she's going to talk to us a little bit about why we're transitioning to electric cars and some of her experience and background in this area. So welcome, Gill. 

00:00:49 Speaker 3 

Thanks so much, Neil. Thanks so much, Chris. Great to be here. 

00:00:53 Speaker 4 

So let's start with the very beginning of this journey. Gill, why are we transitioning to electric cars? 

00:01:00 Speaker 3 

Yeah, I think there's kind of two really simple answers. One, they're just a fantastic way to get from A to B. If you need to use a car at all, they're just a a brilliant drive experience. But I think really fundamentally more important than that is that we all deserve to breathe clean air. 

00:01:20 Speaker 3 

You know, globally air pollution from fossil fuels kills about 5 million people every year. 

00:01:27 Speaker 3 

Yeah, and. And you know of more than I think it's 8 million deaths across the world from from outdoor air pollution over 60% are linked to fossil fuels. And and that was reported quite recently in, in the British medical journey. If we look at the UK where where I am based, poor air quality is linked to about 40,000. 

00:01:49 Speaker 3 

Early deaths in the UK each year, and that's at a cost of about £20 billion to our economy. 

00:01:56 Speaker 3 

So you know the UK Government is moving to decarbonise as much as we can, but you know, we we need to do this just to to give ourselves a chance of a cleaner, healthier future. And electric cars are really, really important tool that will help us meet our climate change goals. And indeed. 

00:02:16 Speaker 3 

And you know what, what we call net zero. One thing that always strikes me is that the Committee on Climate Change has said that again for the UK. 

00:02:28 Speaker 3 

We need about 16,000,000 all electric cars on our roads by 20-30 in order to meet our climate change goals and current projections sit at between 8 to 10 million. So you know, although we're doing quite well, we've got a long, long way to go and you know and and at the start I said that. 

00:02:48 Speaker 3 

Actually, one of the reasons is that they're they're also just a really, really great form of transport. They're really, really good to drive, you know. 

00:02:57 Speaker 3 

100% torque, so you just put your foot down and and you're off. But they also can cost buttons to run, so really really cheap to run, especially if you can charge at home. I'm lucky enough. You know, I I have an electric car. Not surprisingly, probably I do most of my charging at home overnight. 

00:03:17 Speaker 3 

I'm lucky because I do have a driveway, so it costs me less than 5 lbs and I think that's just over six U.S. dollars, something like that. To fully charge my car and that gives me about 280 miles worth of real world driving. 

00:03:33 Speaker 3 

Range because you know, again, I'm fortunate I'm on an off peak energy tariff and and the other great thing is that I can then shift lots of my other big energy use into those off peak hours. You know, my dishwasher, washing machine, things like that. So so there are kind of added benefits. 

00:03:53 Speaker 3 

As well to to being able to charge at home if you have an electric car. 

00:03:59 Speaker 2 

That that's pretty interesting. Interesting when you're you're converting, you know, a full charge to about $6 US, I guess. 

00:04:10 Speaker 2 

Is there still the premium on an EV vehicle? So are the economics gonna work out? I mean, because the tank of gas may be considerably more, especially in the UK where your per liter cost might be higher, but it averages still if you have to pay a premium for the EV. So where are we out of that? So is it really? 

00:04:31 Speaker 3 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's a really, really good point, Chris. So if we look at the total cost of ownership, so that's taking throwing everything into the equation. So if you look at, if you compare an an electric car with its petrol or diesel equivalent, if you take into account how much it costs to to charge that car. 

00:04:50 Speaker 3 

Or fuel that car if you take into account you know, the maintenance costs, the insurance costs, either the upfront purchase or the cost of a lease over a period of of of years. 

00:05:04 Speaker 3 

Then, possibly surprisingly, in General, Electric cars come out. 

00:05:10 Speaker 3 

As good value or even better value than their petrol and diesel equivalent, I think probably at the moment the clincher is if you can do most of your charging at home, but I think anyway actually you know on balance, even if you do have to use public charges, as long as you're not using the most expensive. 

00:05:30 Speaker 3 

Ones. And again the prices creep, you know, is crept up a little bit again in the UK then I think on balance you're probably better off with an electric car, you know and I've I've been involved in in quite a number of surveys on this and it's. 

00:05:46 Speaker 3 

It it can be quite surprising actually some of the some of the responses that I get back, you know people say yes of course. 

00:05:52 Speaker 3 

It is about cost. 

00:05:54 Speaker 3 

And you know, certainly in terms of barriers to to making the switch, that upfront cost is is a big barrier. However, prices are coming down and and quite often people do say, but it's more, it's more than just about cost. You know it is the drive experience, it is the fact that there's zero tailpipe. 

00:06:14 Speaker 3 

Mission and people more and more are coming to understand that we ultimately we need to do something about that and clean up our local air quality. What has surprised me again a little bit recently is that I heard somebody saying the other day, actually somebody from auto trade. 

00:06:32 Speaker 3 

In the UK, say that if we're thinking about the used car market, the used market for electric vehicles, then actually not only are they selling faster than petrol and diesel cars these days, but they many of those have reached price parity with their petrol and diesel. 

00:06:52 Speaker 3 

Counterparts and I don't know what it's like so much elsewhere, but certainly in the UK it's something like. 

00:07:00 Speaker 3 

6 million people buy used cars every year, and about one and a half million buy new. So that second hand market for EV is really, really, really important and the prices have really, really come down. So for a lot more people, it's making a lot more sense to go electric. 

00:07:21 Speaker 4 

So what does all of this mean for businesses? I heard you talk about total cost of ownership and total cost of ownership. 

00:07:27 Speaker 4 

Like a complex equation where you put everything together and you're going OK, right. So I've got the cost to the upfront capital, the cost of the electricity cost of charges, insurance probably comes in there. There's probably a lot that drops into that bucket. You know, what's this mean for a business? 

00:07:42 Speaker 3 

Yeah. So there's actually, there's a, there's a really big carrot to encourage businesses and indeed fleet to transition to electric in the UK. So we have very low tax rates in the form of benefiting kind. That means actually for for business leasing and also EV salary. 

00:08:02 Speaker 3 

Sacrifice schemes. So that's where employees can save up to, you know, about 40% on a sort of traditional electric car lease, if you like. It can really make you know, good economic sense to go. 

00:08:14 Speaker 3 

Electric and and for any business that is looking to decarbonise their fleet or indeed help their staff to to make the switch to electric, it can also really help boost the company's sustainability credentials, and I have read reports that suggest that that certainly for salary sacrifice. 

00:08:34 Speaker 3 

Teams for electric cars. Then it's a really good way to both attract and help retain staff. 

00:08:42 Speaker 3 

But you know, I would say as well that of course businesses vary wildly in size and in terms of the operations that they undertake. So certainly it's not a case of one-size-fits-all. 

00:08:54 Speaker 3 

I think there is. 

00:08:55 Speaker 3 

Still quite a big challenge again, certainly in the UK with with electric vans. 

00:09:02 Speaker 3 

You know, there are certainly some on the market and you know choice and range are starting to to increase. 

00:09:07 Speaker 3 

And I get very excited where I live because I see a lot of electric delivery vans around here and I have a chat with the driver whenever I can. But but I think there's still a long way to go and the electric van market feels to certainly be a few years behind the domestic passenger car market. 

00:09:27 Speaker 3 

And indeed, I heard the Society for Motor Manufacturers and traders recently say that actually, they certainly if we're looking. 

00:09:37 Speaker 3 

At heavy goods. 

00:09:38 Speaker 3 

Vehicles, then that market is about 14 years behind cars. So again, there's still quite a long way to go. 

00:09:46 Speaker 4 

Yeah, interesting. We we'll probably talk about electric trucks at some point. So these all sound like quite good news stories. But we've talked a lot this year about FUD, fear, uncertainty and doubt. What is that and why are we seeing so much of it at the moment? 

00:10:02 Speaker 3 

Well, food is everywhere, let's face it. 

00:10:05 Speaker 3 

And so the practice of spreading that fear, uncertainty and doubt is, is indeed widespread. It's in mainstream and social media. It's, you know, I see it on my sort of my social media networks on a daily basis. And it's really intended to undermine consumer confidence. 

00:10:25 Speaker 3 

In in switching to to EV. 

00:10:30 Speaker 3 

If we look at some of the classic cases of thud, if you like. So one of those is is cost. You know people are put off by the higher upfront cost and and you know even though as we've discussed already, we are reaching price parity in terms of the second hand market for electric vehicles. 

00:10:49 Speaker 3 

We still need to reach that price parity with new. I would suggest, even when we, you know, try and encourage people to look at the total cost of ownership so often, so difficult to get over that, that kind of higher upfront cost. 

00:11:08 Speaker 3 

So it's it. I think cost is one of them and we need to do whatever we can to encourage people to kind of look a little bit more deeply into it. I think another area is on is on range, you know for for years now we we hear about range anxiety. 

00:11:25 Speaker 3 

And and this is where people are are worried that essentially an electric car isn't going to have enough range to get them from A to B. 

00:11:36 Speaker 3 

But I think we can really unpack that quite quickly. You know, a third of all electric cars, at least on the market today, have a range of over about 250 miles. And and I think it's sort of over 1/2 have a range of of over 200 miles. But if we go even deeper than that, you know, certainly in the UK. 

00:11:56 Speaker 3 

The average daily journey is under 30 miles and 99% of all journeys are under 100 miles. 

00:12:04 Speaker 3 

So really, if you think about how far you drive on a daily basis, most of the time an electric car will quite happily, you know, get you to where you need to go. And indeed I I frequently am disappointed because I do not need to stop and charge on route. 

00:12:23 Speaker 3 

You know, possibly quite perversely, I really enjoy the whole charging in public experience, but more often than not, when I do go on that longer journey, I tend to. 

00:12:34 Speaker 3 

Charge when I get when I arrive at my destination, you know whether that's overnight. 

00:12:40 Speaker 3 

Or I don't know at at the zoo or something like that. And so. And I think again, there's a lot of thing, there's a lot of messaging that we need to get out there to to help people understand that, you know, actually electric cars really do go the distance these days and it's only relatively infrequently or for those. 

00:13:00 Speaker 3 

Relatively few regular long distance drivers that charging is is going to be an issue very often which? 

00:13:11 Speaker 3 

Then probably brings us on to charging infrastructure. 

00:13:15 Speaker 3 

You know, there's there's a lot of. 

00:13:18 Speaker 3 

I think for me, misinformation out there about sort of the perceived lack of charging infrastructure, you know, we've got I think it's over 53,000 public charges in the UK at the moment, but we also have hundreds and hundreds of thousands of home and workplace charges, you know, and at the moment. 

00:13:38 Speaker 3 

Certainly most EV drivers do do most of their charging at home, and then there's all sorts of really neat solutions emerging for on street charging when people can't charge at home. 

00:13:52 Speaker 3 

But as much as we like to talk about the numbers of charges, you know and and the UK Government has set a target for at least 300 public charges by 20-30. And and I hear myself saying this so often it's, you know it it is more than just a numbers game. We need to make sure that in terms of public charging, they're. 

00:14:13 Speaker 3 

The right speed of charges. 

00:14:15 Speaker 3 

In the right locations in the right numbers that they are easy to use, they're easy to pay for, they are accessible and safe to use for all drivers and and I think the really good news on charging infrastructure is that charging companies. So the charge what operators in the UK have committed. 

00:14:37 Speaker 3 

£60 billion worth of investment in charging infrastructure to take us up to 2030. 

00:14:44 Speaker 3 

Which is really, really encouraging. 

00:14:49 Speaker 2 

As you're talking about the charging infrastructure and and you seem to highlight the the change in behavior. So I think one of the things that I wonder at the economics has trickles down. If if I no longer go to my local service station. 

00:15:05 Speaker 2 

Longer term, as more and more population charges at home. 

00:15:10 Speaker 2 

The business model those service stations may change or diminish and so will there still be the public charging infrastructure once I no longer need to stop because right now, there's still plenty of gas cars going and maybe I add an electric charging station or I have a charging station at, you know, Walmart or at this at the store. But are we looking at a paradigm shift? 

00:15:30 Speaker 2 

To getting our energy for our vehicle. 

00:15:34 Speaker 3 

Yeah, I think to a degree quite possibly, Chris, I mean there will I I think always be a role for charging hubs. So not everybody is going to be able to charge at home again. You know taking the UK as an example at about 60% of households don't have access to off street parking. 

00:15:54 Speaker 3 

And that's not to say that all those households have a car. 

00:15:58 Speaker 3 

However, you know a a a percentage of those will do, and I don't know, Neil, if you know what that number is. But but you know, there's certainly going to be a significant number of people who will need to use public charges and and that's only going to sort of increase. So I 

00:16:17 Speaker 3 

You know, I really like, if I can mention sort of names. I like the grid serve model, the electric forecourt. So that's kind of reimagining the whole petrol forecourt and switching it entirely on its head to to. 

00:16:31 Speaker 3 

Metric. However, it has, you know it has a shop. It has a cafe, it even has meeting rooms. It's a really, really lovely environment and I get far too excited. I've only visited once, but I really want to visit another one very soon, you know? And so. So I think although probably business models will. 

00:16:51 Speaker 3 

Will change to a degree. There's still going to be a role for those sort of charging hubs, those electric forecourts and so on. And ultimately I think of it as a little bit like the. 

00:17:01 Speaker 3 

Energy mix. 

00:17:02 Speaker 3 

So it's going to be a mix of charging solutions that will that you know will work for. 

00:17:09 Speaker 3 

Different for different people, for different drivers at different times. 

00:17:16 Speaker 4 

And and this this charging question comes up again and again, but I'm seeing increasingly that Fudd is pointed in different directions. Uh, one of the ones which seems to repeatedly come up is uh fires. Uh. There's obviously questions around sourcing and minerals for batteries. How long the batteries. 

00:17:35 Speaker 4 

Last, there's another cracker. Uh, so there's some great stuff emerging. What's driving it or what? What do we say to these people? 

00:17:42 Speaker 3 

Ohh I know, I know Neil it it is. It is everywhere, isn't it? So so if we can touch on the battery point, then you know, understandably there are still concerns about their environmental impact. 

00:17:55 Speaker 3 

But I think there's certainly there's plenty of research now that shows that on a whole life cycle analysis, EV's produce about 1/3 less carbon emissions. Or is that fewer carbon emissions than petrol and die? 

00:18:09 Speaker 3 

Middle cars and there's naturally quite a big focus on battery production and disposal. You know, an associated ethical and environmental issues around lithium and cobalt mining. But if we take Cobalt as an example, because I think this is one that does emerge a lot in terms of EV. 

00:18:30 Speaker 3 

Then the cobalt content of batteries has been slashed by about 90%. I believe in recent years, you know, and there are now EV's driving around on our roads today that are entirely cobalt free. 

00:18:45 Speaker 3 

And but if we look at Cobalt used globally, then my understanding is that actually most is used in electronics. Then in Petro chemical refinement. And then the last figure I saw was about 10% is used in electric cars. 

00:19:03 Speaker 3 

So. So actually, you know, I think it really helps to look at the bigger picture and there are there's all sorts of. 

00:19:12 Speaker 3 

Work going on as well in terms of cobalt with the Fair Cobalt Foundation? 

00:19:18 Speaker 3 

I think it. 

00:19:19 Speaker 3 

Is that's really, really working hard to to make sure that the supply chain is is ethical and and at the end of the day. 

00:19:29 Speaker 3 

As well, you know batteries. 

00:19:30 Speaker 3 

Just aren't going to end up in landfill because they are too valuable, I hear. I hear that a lot, although we're just going to see landfill full of of electric car batteries. You know, they can be used in a range of storage applications and also of course, there's very strict regulations that govern what happens to them at the end of their life. 

00:19:50 Speaker 3 

Also, recycling technology is improving all the time and you know up to, I don't know, something like 95% or even more of of the materials can be recycled. And then there's in terms of how long they last. 

00:20:05 Speaker 3 

Because as you quite rightly say, that often comes up. That's one of those classic food pieces. 

00:20:10 Speaker 3 

As well, I think quite recent real-world data from Tesla has shown that even at 200,000 miles, then electric car batteries have only lost about 13% in terms of their capacity. 

00:20:26 Speaker 3 

Which is, you know, which is very little relatively speaking. So it's it's it's not an issue and if we're thinking about more people entering the EV market through the used market, then we need to make sure that that we're sort of imbuing those customers with. 

00:20:46 Speaker 3 

Confidence. They're actually, you know, their electric car battery, second hand or not is is going to be is going to be absolutely fine. You know, my first electric car was a second hand Nissan, Nissan LEAF and and I can you know hand on heart say that it just it was not. 

00:21:05 Speaker 3 

You know, it didn't even occur to me that there was gonna be a a, A. 

00:21:08 Speaker 3 

Problem with the battery. 

00:21:10 Speaker 3 

And on the fire front, I think you mentioned that as well, Neil. So I think it was the, there was a study that has that was done relatively recently in Sweden that showed that electric vehicles are 20 times less likely to catch fire than their. 

00:21:30 Speaker 3 

Petrol and diesel. 

00:21:35 Speaker 3 

And I think that I think the the issue though with EV fires is that whilst they are far less common than than internal combustion engine vehicles Catching Fire, there's the issue of thermal runway. 

00:21:53 Speaker 3 

And my understanding of thermal runway is that where the batteries temperatures skyrocket, then there's all sorts of chemical reactions that take place that spiral out of control. The battery generates really, really intense heat, which can then ignite anything that's flammable in or around the battery. 

00:22:13 Speaker 3 

So there's possibly certainly, you know, more work may well need to be done to understand the the the challenge that thermal runway presents. 

00:22:23 Speaker 3 

With a view to really enhancing, you know, safety features, but you know the the the key message there is that electric cars are far less likely to catch fire than there than petrol and diesel cars. 

00:22:39 Speaker 4 

I believe there's even some tech coming to market whereby the battery won't catch fire at all, which is always a fascinating concept. So clearly the. 

00:22:48 Speaker 4 

These electric cars are zooming around us all the time, and prior to your current role you had some experience in the world of insurance. Do we see changes happening with the way that people drive their driving behaviour? Are people going faster? Are they having more accidents? Is there a a change in driver behavior as a consequence of driving all of these rather nice fancy cars around? 

00:23:10 Speaker 3 

Yeah, I think the risk is is the risk is when somebody first gets to drive an electric car, you know, perhaps somebody who hasn't driven an electric car before. So it's in that first, those first few, you know, days, weeks, months, even up to a year when somebody's really settling into the the fact that actually I put my foot down and it just goes, you know the performance. 

00:23:31 Speaker 3 

Is absolutely phenomenal and that's whether it's, you know, a 2015 Nissan LEAF or a 2023 Genesis GV 60, you know. So so I think that's that's the challenge there. And funnily enough, a little while ago I had a test drive. 

00:23:48 Speaker 3 

Live in a oh, gosh, a Ford. You know, Mustang marquee. 

00:23:55 Speaker 3 

And and I sat in the car and the guy next to me said OK, let's go. So I drove. 

00:24:02 Speaker 3 

And he said, oh, you've driven an electric cars before, haven't you? And I said yes, I have quite a few. And he said, I can really tell because most people would nearly have gone into that wall. 

00:24:13 Speaker 3 

You know, because they're just, it's just and maybe you know, that the machine as well. I found to be particularly responsive, shall we say so, yeah. 

00:24:25 Speaker 3 

So, but but then this, and this is anecdotal, I do hear I've spoken to so many people and I've read about so many people on social media say that actually they are more aware of their driving and actually electric cars make them into a calmer, better driver. 

00:24:45 Speaker 3 

You know, because perhaps you are a little bit more aware of your your speed and because you maybe you do want to just see where how much range you can get and. 

00:24:53 Speaker 3 

So on. 

00:24:54 Speaker 3 

So. So yeah, I think behaviour change, yes, but I would like to think that very often it's for the better. 

00:25:02 Speaker 4 

When I'm driving my AV, I tend to find I use the regen braking a lot more, but what I'm really interested in Gill is you've got a new role recently you've joined a free who are a free and what do they do? 

00:25:14 Speaker 3 

Yeah, so, so well, I've been with her for a little while now as a principal consultant in their future cities and mobility team, part of the management consulting division. So a three, we've been around. Would you believe it for over 125 years, we were. 

00:25:34 Speaker 3 

Founded in Malmo in Sweden in 1895. 

00:25:38 Speaker 3 

And we are a global sustainable engineering design and advisory company. One of the things I really love about working for a free is that. 

00:25:50 Speaker 3 

Every has a really clear purpose, and that is to accelerate the transition toward the more sustainable society. 

00:26:00 Speaker 3 

So So what does that actually mean? So so my role in in the business is to really help build up the E mobility business in the UK. We have a a wealth of experience in the electric mobility field we. 

00:26:19 Speaker 3 

Support clients on transport decarbonisation like electrification of fleets. We provide technical guidance for the development of smart cities, for example. 

00:26:31 Speaker 3 

And one of the things if we take EV charging infrastructures as an example, you know we know that. 

00:26:41 Speaker 3 

The growth of electric mobility really requires a lot of investment in charging infrastructure, so we can model the pace of growth and the type of infrastructure needed. 

00:26:53 Speaker 3 

We know that the additional electricity demand from EV's creates a challenge for electricity networks, which is a lot of my earlier work, ironically, so we can provide really deep insights through our state-of-the-art power. 

00:27:12 Speaker 3 

Market modelling software that is called bid 3. 

00:27:15 Speaker 3 

And and we also understand that vehicle charging infrastructure is actually quite is a relatively new type of network still so. So we advise our clients in, in both the private and public sectors on new market entry design and and regulations, so for example. 

00:27:35 Speaker 3 

If there was a a charging a charge for an operator in the UK and they were looking to either expand their network either in the UK or indeed enter a new market overseas, then we would really help them with the market assessment. 

00:27:51 Speaker 3 

To look at the potential and to you know, to understand the CapEx and OpEx of that move and to help them build up the the business model and also we can do all the price projections as well for them. So yeah, so we do a lot of really exciting work. 

00:28:08 Speaker 3 

And the the kind of the longer I'm. I'm. I'm with a free the the more I'm the more I'm learning for sure about about what we can do and and yeah it's exciting and it's it's actually really really nice to be back in back in the consultancy space as well. 

00:28:26 Speaker 4 

And you referenced briefly there a couple of your earlier experiences in electricity distribution. Could you give us an example of some of those really early, you know, sort of pioneering projects that you were involved in back at the beginning of this EV transition? 

00:28:41 Speaker 3 

Yes, of course. Yes. So back in 2012. 

00:28:45 Speaker 3 

It was day two in the new job back then actually, and somebody put a piece of paper on my desk and said, Gill, will you fill this out, please? It's an it's an expression of interest form. So that piece of paper became the £10 million worth of my electric Ave. project. 

00:29:05 Speaker 3 

Which was the 1st. 

00:29:07 Speaker 3 

Project of its kind to really look at the impact of clusters of electric cars on the local electricity network and and we also tried a really, really early form. I think probably one of the first forms of smart charging which wasn't called smart charging. Then it was demand control technology. So and we. 

00:29:27 Speaker 3 

We had over 200 trial participants all driving around in Nissan LEAF for for two years, so we had loads and loads of data or wealth of data. 

00:29:39 Speaker 3 

On both Evie driving behaviour but also charging behaviour as well. So we learned so much so and and a lot of it was about understanding how, how consumers, how easy drivers would accept having their charging managed. 

00:29:58 Speaker 3 

And luckily, we found that by and large, they would accept having their charging manage. 

00:30:04 Speaker 3 

So that project was followed by a project called Electric Nation, which was kind of a little bit like my electric Ave. but on steroids because whilst my electric Ave. only involved the Nissan Leaf, the Electric Nation project worked with trial participants in a whole range of both all electric and also plug in. 

00:30:25 Speaker 3 

Hybrid electric vehicles to to understand the impact of smart charging on those vehicles. But also we did. We did double in vehicle to grid actually at that time as well. So I think that was one of the earliest projects looking at vehicle to. 

00:30:40 Speaker 3 

Did and and I remember at the time we it was a huge challenge sourcing a single phase compliant V2G charger because they were all three phase, you know for commercial use but for domestic use they you know barely existed back then. So so that was really, really that was really fascinating. 

00:31:00 Speaker 3 

Work and actually quite a lot of that work and the findings from those kind of projects informed the government's position on smart charging and really helped inform the automated and Electric Vehicles Act in the UK that has mandated smart charging and so on. 

00:31:17 Speaker 3 

One of the big things that we learned from my electric Ave. was that. 

00:31:22 Speaker 3 

There was actually no collaboration and no communication between the automotive sector and the energy networks. 

00:31:30 Speaker 3 

So I brought together with the help of. 

00:31:36 Speaker 3 

Oh my goodness me. 

00:31:40 Speaker 3 

They are now Zemo partnership. Low CVP at the time. So yes, I had a meeting with low CVP who are now Zemo and said look, can we do something together? 

00:31:52 Speaker 3 

The result of that was that we brought together a whole range of stakeholders across automotive, energy and elsewhere that formed the EV network group that ultimately became the government EV Energy Task force, which did a whole load of really, really good work in trying to bring together the transport and and. 

00:32:12 Speaker 3 

And energy sectors to really kind of. 

00:32:15 Speaker 3 

You know, make sure that everything just works in harmony. I'm not sure whether we're we're there quite yet, but you know, it was. It was certainly a good start. 

00:32:26 Speaker 2 

When when you did the earlier study you you talked about the first effort where it was all Leafs in a kind of a single vendors vehicle. Are EV's getting to be commodity enough that that you can drop in any vendor in one of these studies and and is the behavior the same or is there so much differentiation between you know, if I buy a Hyundai and I buy a leaf and I buy a Tesla or you know what? 

00:32:48 Speaker 2 

For Evi π, are they from the grid side going to be the same or is there going to be different behaviors because of the manufacturers car? 

00:32:59 Speaker 3 

I think it's really interesting what the. So we have the distribution network operators kind of doing their thing and their role is to protect the local electricity network. You know in in GB. But then what has happened I think is that the energy suppliers have come in and said, well, actually we can, we can bring out some really nice. 

00:33:20 Speaker 3 

Such as you know, Evie, friendly time of use tariffs and that's what's that's actually made a huge difference in terms of both protecting the the grid, but also really incentivizing the the consumer to change their. 

00:33:40 Speaker 3 

Behaviour accordingly, you know and only charging off peak for example and whether it is sort of vehicle specific. You know there's also there's so many complexities. 

00:33:52 Speaker 3 

Around it. But you know some some vehicles will communicate with with a particular smart charger, some won't. And so there's all sorts of different ways that ways that it's. 

00:34:04 Speaker 3 

All it's sort of. 

00:34:05 Speaker 3 

The communications take place, which is far too complex for me to get my head around. Most of the time, but but really as an EV. 

00:34:13 Speaker 3 

Driver. All I want to do on the the domestic, you know at home is be able to plug in my car when I get home. I don't really care when it charges, but I just want to know that when I wake up it will be topped up to about 80% and I then I can, you know, do what I need to do and the benefit is that it's really. 

00:34:32 Speaker 3 

Cost me hardly anything at all to do that. 

00:34:38 Speaker 4 

Yeah, that's that's the huge benefit of this idea of the electric transition. You can plug in at night. You can wake up in the morning and happy days. Your car is charged in the morning. Well, you've been on quite a journey, Gill, through some of the work you're doing in your new role at a three, but also through some of the food busting that's required. And then the history of. 

00:34:56 Speaker 4 

How you know some of the early pioneering projects set the landscape for current government regulations. It's been super exciting. Thank you very much and a real insight for many of our listeners. 

00:35:09 Speaker 3 

Thank you so much, Niall. Thank you so much, Chris. 

00:35:13 Speaker 2 

For audience, this concludes another episode of the Insiders Guide to Energy EV series. We hope you've enjoyed this content. Don't forget to share it with your friends. Comment on LinkedIn and definitely follow us on YouTube to catch some exclusive content. We'll talk to you again next time on the insiders guide to Energy podcast. Bye bye for now.